Hi everyone,

I’m working with an Anritsu 37369C Vector Network Analyzer (VNA) and need some guidance on measuring complex permittivity and permeability of absorbing materials to calculate reflection loss.

I plan to use a waveguide for these measurements, but I’m unsure about the required waveguide dimensions and the software tools needed to obtain accurate data for complex permittivity and permeability.

Could anyone provide advice on:

* *Waveguide Dimensions* : What dimensions should the waveguide have for accurate measurements with this VNA?
* *Software Recommendations* : What software tools are best suited for calculating complex permittivity and permeability from VNA measurements?

Any tips or resources you can share would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance for your help.

When I’ve done this kind of measurement, I use a WG that covers the frequency
band of interest (so for S-band, it’s a big thing about 6” across, for X-band
more like WR-90)

You go through the process of calibrating the WG with a short and load
(usually a sliding short).

Then you put your material you’re testing (assuming a thin layer) on the
short, and measure.



The other approach is to use a horn antenna (which tends to have very wide
bandwidth) and go through the open/short calibration, then cover a big metal
plate with the material under test, big enough to cover the end of the horn,
and then measure it. Remember that the open (assuming the horn is outdoors
and facing up) is really looking into something with Z=377 ohms.



However, this won’t get you the “off axis” values (e.g. if you’re measuring
something for an anechoic chamber).



For more rigorous material property measurements there are test cells
specifically designed for this - for instance, you fill the cell with the
material under test, measure the properties, and then from the mechanical
dimensions of the cell, you can calculate the material properties. The cell
is usually a shorted waveguide of some sort, typically round. I’ve also seen
a coaxial test cell.



There are plenty of application notes from Keysight/HP on this.







> On Sep 14, 2024, at 9:04 AM, Aldhafyans@gmail.com wrote:
>
>

> 

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I’m working with an Anritsu 37369C Vector Network Analyzer (VNA) and need
some guidance on measuring complex permittivity and permeability of absorbing
materials to calculate reflection loss.

>

> I plan to use a waveguide for these measurements, but I’m unsure about the
required waveguide dimensions and the software tools needed to obtain accurate
data for complex permittivity and permeability.

>

> Could anyone provide advice on:

>

> 1. **Waveguide Dimensions** : What dimensions should the waveguide have
for accurate measurements with this VNA?

> 2. **Software Recommendations** : What software tools are best suited for
calculating complex permittivity and permeability from VNA measurements?

>

>

> Any tips or resources you can share would be greatly appreciated!

>

> Thanks in advance for your help.

_._,_._,_

* * *

Perhaps you should reach out to an Anritsu field engineer. They have
decent technical support.

On Sat, Sep 14, 2024 at 12:04 PM Aldhafyans via groups.io <Aldhafyans=
gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I’m working with an Anritsu 37369C Vector Network Analyzer (VNA) and need
> some guidance on measuring complex permittivity and permeability of
> absorbing materials to calculate reflection loss.
>
> I plan to use a waveguide for these measurements, but I’m unsure about the
> required waveguide dimensions and the software tools needed to obtain
> accurate data for complex permittivity and permeability.
>
> Could anyone provide advice on:
>
> 1. *Waveguide Dimensions*: What dimensions should the waveguide have
> for accurate measurements with this VNA?
> 2. *Software Recommendations*: What software tools are best suited for
> calculating complex permittivity and permeability from VNA measurements?
>
> Any tips or resources you can share would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
>
>

I have been working the same matter using both a Keysight Field Fox and a NanoVNA. Note: Keysight is a “spin-off” of Hewlett Packard.

I used the following two papers:

1. Product Note 8510-3; Materials Measurement; by Hewlett Packard (now Keysight)
2. Measurement of Dielectric Material Properties Application Note; by Rhode & Schwartz

Both documents present a waveguide example complete with frequency, needed dimensions, example calculations, etc.

I used the “8510-3” paper as a “go-by” when making the needed calculations, and then the Rhode and Schwartz information to “verify” the calculation process. I am reasonably certain the Anritsu unit provides the needed S11 and S12 data one needs for the calculations.

As far as software goes – I have not come across any such software online (that is not implying there isn’t any – I have not really searched). I have used a version of “MathCAD“ to set-up the equations needed to perform the calculations shown by the HP paper. (And the repeated the calcs using the Rhode and Schwartz paper as a check.) I suspect that a MathCAD competitor, “MatLab”, and others will also work.

I, however, have written, a FORTRAN program and a Visual Basic program to perform the calculation. Both program versions perform the calculation for a single frequency with S11, S12, and other needed parameters. The FORTRAN version will also “awkwardly” deal with an “s2p” file whereas the VB program is near completion.

Hope this helps a little.

73
Ed
W6ONT

HI Ed,
Can you share MathCAD,FORTRAN program and a Visual Basic program ?

Thank you

On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 7:30 AM Ed Kane via groups.io <w6ont=
att.net@groups.io> wrote:

> I have been working the same matter using both a Keysight Field Fox and a
> NanoVNA. Note: Keysight is a “spin-off” of Hewlett Packard.
>
>
>
> I used the following two papers:
>
> 1. Product Note 8510-3; Materials Measurement; by Hewlett Packard (now
> Keysight)
> 2. Measurement of Dielectric Material Properties Application Note; by
> Rhode & Schwartz
>
>
>
> Both documents present a waveguide example complete with frequency, needed
> dimensions, example calculations, etc.
>
>
>
> I used the “8510-3” paper as a “go-by” when making the needed
> calculations, and then the Rhode and Schwartz information to “verify” the
> calculation process. I am reasonably certain the Anritsu unit provides the
> needed S11 and S12 data one needs for the calculations.
>
>
>
> As far as software goes – I have not come across any such software online
> (that is not implying there isn’t any – I have not really searched). I
> have used a version of “MathCAD“ to set-up the equations needed to perform
> the calculations shown by the HP paper. (And the repeated the calcs using
> the Rhode and Schwartz paper as a check.) I suspect that a MathCAD
> competitor, “MatLab”, and others will also work.
>
>
>
> I, however, have written, a FORTRAN program and a Visual Basic program to
> perform the calculation. Both program versions perform the calculation for
> a single frequency with S11, S12, and other needed parameters. The FORTRAN
> version will also “awkwardly” deal with an “s2p” file whereas the VB
> program is near completion.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps a little.
>
>
>
> 73
>
> Ed
>
> W6ONT
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Sat, 14 Sep 2024 14:26:25 -0400
"Bob W0EG" <morrisnc7@gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps you should reach out to an Anritsu field engineer. They have
> decent technical support.

Try not to tell them if you bought it secondhand, a friend of mine was
unable to get support after an expensive 20GHz VNA was rejected for
support because he bought it from a company that closed its UK lab.

--

Brian Morrison

"I am not young enough to know everything"
Oscar Wilde